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Oleksandra Matviichuk, Kyiv, December 26, 2022. Photo. Hennadii Minchenko/East News
At least 20,000 children deported, and 150,000 war crimes files opened by the Ukrainian justice system. On February 24, 2025, three years after the start of the Russian invasion, while Emmanuel Macron was meeting Donald Trump in Washington, les humanités spoke with Oleksandra Matviichuk, winner of the Nobel Peace Prize in 2022, director of the Kiev Center for Civil Liberties and a leading figure in the fight against impunity for war crimes committed by the Russian Federation against the Ukrainian population. From the deportations of Ukrainian children, to Trump's suspension of aid to civil society, to Putin's imperialist aims, she delivers a powerful message: there can be no peace until justice is done; and there can be no justice until the human dimension of this war is brought back to the heart of political discussions on Ukraine.
les humanités - First of all, we'd like to ask you about the deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia, which we've documented extensively since September 2022 (1). A few of these children are being released by Russia, but what do we know about the fate of all those who are still prisoners on the territory of the Russian Federation?
Oleksandra Matviichuk - The Ukrainian authorities talk about some 20,000 children who have been illegally abducted and deported from Ukraine. They have been placed in camps where they are told that they have been abandoned by their country and their families, that they are not Ukrainian children but Russian ones, and that they will be adopted by Russian families who will take care of them. For the most part, they still have their families, who are either in Russian captivity or in the occupied territories. There are children of very different ages. This point is not insignificant, as Russian jurisprudence authorizes adoptive families to change not only the child's first and last names, but also the date of birth, which complicates the tracing process for the birth families.
les humanités - Despite the Russian regime's propaganda and the financial incentives promised by Maria Lvova-Belova (2) and the Kremlin, it seems that few Russian families actually wanted to adopt these deported children. But then, if we're talking about 20,000 children, and perhaps there are even more, where are they? In camps, in orphanages? We have no information on where they are. Is there cause for concern?
Olexandra Matviichuk - It's not easy at all to map out the destiny of every child. But there are a few initiatives that are tackling this issue. Yale University recently published a report on the fate of these children. (3) The aim of the research is to understand the system built up by the Russian government to abduct and adopt these children, at every stage of their journey, based on a few examples.
les humanités - Without divulging any confidential information, does the Civil Liberties Centre you run in Ukraine still manage to maintain unofficial relations with Russian associations?
Oleksandra Matviichuk - The Civil Liberties Centre is part of the Russian-Ukrainian organization “Rights Defense Contact Group”. This is an unofficial grouping [created] to continue to protect the rights of those who have suffered illegal abduction or other crimes by the Russian Federation. It is thanks to the capabilities of this unofficial group that Ukrainian partners still have some contact with children who have been deported.
les humanités - Does this also apply to the territories occupied by Russia? We know that some young people who have reached conscription age have been conscripted into the Russian army. Do you have any information confirming this?
Oleksandra Matviichuk - There are still 1.6 million Ukrainian children in the occupied territories, all of whom are subjected to a forced erasure of [their] Ukrainian identity. They are taught to be fully obedient, which means they are reprogrammed to live under an autocracy.
les humanités - ... And with a militarization program that begins [at a very young age...
Oleksandra Matviichuk - From kindergarten onward, they are subjected to a militarized education. Parents are forced to let children go to camps that are considered sports camps, health camps for children, where they are dressed in uniforms and they use weapons, where they do military marches... Putin's Russia is preparing a new generation of soldiers, since at 14 they get a Russian passport and at 18 they join the army. Russia is preparing for a long-term war, and it's naive to think that Ukraine is the only country concerned by such intentions.
les humanités- The Nobel Peace Prize you were awarded in 2022 brought you notoriety, but did it also bring you resources? Given the scale of Russian war crimes - sex crimes, child deportations, cases of torture - how many of you at the Civil Liberties Centre are working on all these issues?
Olexandra Matviichuk - Since the start of the large-scale invasion, we've been faced with an enormous amount of work, and a colossal quantity of crimes to process. As a result, we had to join forces with a dozen other organizations on the Ukrainian territory, and create a network of people who document war crimes. This network covers the whole of Ukraine, including the occupied territories.
les humanités - Was this the network for which writer Victoria Amelina, who was killed in a Russian bombing in June 2023, worked? (4)
Olexandra Matviichuk - Victoria did indeed belong to an organization that is part of the network I'm talking about. Working together, we have documented 81,000 war crimes since the start of the large-scale invasion. [As for the Nobel Prize]: for years, the voices of human rights defenders were not heard. They kept repeating that human rights and peace are inextricably linked. The militarization of childhood is not only a violation of children's rights, it also represents a potential danger for the region. The Nobel Prize has made these voices heard.
les humanités - There's something the French press barely mentions: the Ukrainian justice system, with no doubt insufficient means, is doing its job. For example, the man who told the Russian army about the restaurant in Kramatorsk where Victoria Amelina was killed was arrested and convicted. It's not only international justice that is investigating some of these war crimes cases, but also Ukrainian justice.
Oleksandra Matviichuk - The Ukrainian state legal system has continued to operate at full capacity all through these war years. Of course, the work of the International Criminal Court is very valuable, but 99% of the crimes committed by the Russian Federation will be documented and judged by the Ukrainian national judicial system. The problem lies in the volume of cases to be processed. The Prosecutor's Office is currently documenting and investigating 150,000 cases of war crimes. This is a staggering figure. Even the best legal system imaginable would not be able to absorb such a sheer volume of cases. That's why Ukraine needs help.
The permanent team of the Civil Liberties Centre, headed by Oleksandra Matviichuk
les humanités - On this topic, has Trump's decision to halt USAID programs (5) already had consequences for certain Ukrainian associations and NGOs?
Oleksandra Matviichuk - In concrete terms, the Civil Liberties Centre is not directly affected, but I can already see negative consequences for the operations of our partners. Some organizations are threatened with closure as a result. In this case, we're talking about organizations that help victims of sexual assault and torture, and these people, understandably, can't wait to be helped...
les humanités - You say Ukraine needs help. We hear almost exclusively about military aid. Of course, military aid is important, but not only. We've tried to organize a dialogue on this subject between you and President Emmanuel Macron. Have you ever met him?
Oleksandra Matviichuk - Yes, I had the opportunity to meet him on several occasions during my visits to Paris. We talked about justice in relation to the crimes Russia is committing in this war. Because it's clear that justice is the prerequisite for peace in our region.Russia's armed forces, which have committed similar war crimes in Chechnya, Moldova, Mali and other regions, such as Syria, have never been punished for these war crimes. Therefore, they believe that they can continue their criminal activities without being punished.
les humanités - Let's hope this dialogue with the French president can take place. You've already met him, but since Donald Trump took office, there's a radically new situation. At les humanités, we think it's important that such a dialogue with you be “public”. But without waiting, in light of today's situation, would you have a question or a message for the French president?
Oleksandra Matviichuk - Yes. I'd like to say two things. The first is that Putin didn't start this invasion at all to occupy one more stretch of Ukrainian territory. He sees Ukraine as a bridge to Europe, and his aim is to destroy Ukraine and then move towards Europe, with a view to restoring the Russian empire. That's why, if we want peace, we need to find solutions not just to postpone Putin's dreams, but to stop them, to make them impossible.
Second: I draw attention to the fact that today's political circles talk about mining resources, elections in Ukraine and many other things, but they fail to talk about people. They don't talk about the children who have been deported to Russia; they don't talk about the thousands of civilians who have been deported and locked up in gaols in Russia, who are systematically raped and subjected to torture; they don't talk about the people in the occupied territories who have found themselves face to face with the occupier and who have no other interlocutor. I personally ask the French President to bring the human dimension back into all political processes.
Interview by Jean-Marc Adolphe, editor-in-chief of Humanités.
Interview conducted on February 24, 2025 (video below, on the brand-new Humanités YouTube channel), in French and Ukrainian (translation by Kséniya Kravtsova, Ukrainian artist living in France), as part of a special day “for and with Ukraine”, with contributions from Galia Ackerman, Taras Beniak, Diana Klochko, Danylo Movchan, Christian Castagna, André Markowicz and tributes to Maksym Kryvtsov, Victoria Amelina, Grugoryi Choubaï (HERE).
NOTES
(1). les humanités were the first to denounce and document the abduction of Ukrainian children from Russian-occupied territories, in a series of articles published from April 2022 onwards. The last article in this series, with links to those that preceded it, can be found HERE.
(2). Russian Presidential Commissioner for Children's Rights (sic), Maria Lvova-Belova is, along with Vladimir Putin, the subject of an arrest warrant from the International Criminal Court. The Humanities have devoted forty publications to her. Read, for example, “La poutinasse rafleuse d'enfants”, published on September 19, 2022 (HERE).
(3). The report referred to by Oleksandra Matviichuk was published on December 3, 2024 by the Conflict Observatory - Humanitarian Research Lab at Yale Medical University. This is a research group that documents war crimes in conflict zones and whose reports contribute significantly to the work of international courts, notably the ICC (HERE).
(4). On Victoria Amelina, read on humanities “Une suite pour Victoria Amelina”, published on July 4, 2023 (HERE). In France, under the title Regarder les femmes regarder la guerre. Ukraine. Journal interrompu, Editions Flammarion has just published Victoria Amelina's first work in French. The unfinished manuscript of this work was entrusted to a friend by Victoria Amelina shortly before her death.
(5). The United States Agency for International Development (USAID) is the U.S. government agency responsible for economic development and humanitarian assistance worldwide. The agency works under the supervision of the President, the State Department and the National Security Council. It was created in 1961 by executive order of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. At the very start of his second term, Donald Trump decided to suspend all USAID commitments and payments.
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